Sorry for the absence…been on vacation…did a lot of reflecting!
Here’s another key point in communication: separate FACT from OPINION
It is a simple fact that people don’t really conflict about facts; but it is a further fact that people go to war over opinions. The next time you are wrestling with someone (or are overseeing a disagreement), just set the facts on one side of a sheet of paper and the opinions on the other. Suddenly you’ll know what you are EXACTLY disagreeing (and agreeing) about.
It gets even cooler when you ask this question, “Now, can we find out if this (name one) opinion is true or not?” If you can’t, then why argue?—you can’t prove it. If you can prove your opinion, then go do so and make it into a FACT (so everyone will agree).
Frankly, theology and the news is loaded with all this strident and nonsensical brandishing of opinions. I’ve been the victim of plenty of this and I’m afraid I’ve left a few marks on others as well. Not now.
Maturity in communication finds out the facts…and…sure doesn’t pass along opinion as fact. Of course, following these thoughts will kill a lot of the email that flies around. But so be it.
Grace,
Fred Lybrand
Hi Fred,
I came about your website as I have been studying the doctrine espoused by Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin.
We have been at a Free Grace church for over a year, and only recently noted some of their theology; specifically, that it is not necessary to repent, nor to know that Christ died to pay for your sins, or to recognize that you are a sinner (for that matter).
This message is in conflict with our own beliefs, so we are setting out to understand it. Or be more clear about why we disagree with it.
While my husband is diligently going through the scriptures, I have taken a different approach. I have read the scriptures, but find that scholarly men will use words like “believe” in different ways….
What has been more clear to me, is the teaching that one does not need to “accept”, in fact, someone who has the facts can not “reject” Jesus. (as told to me personally, by Bob Wilkin.)
It seems to me, that at the heart of our salvation, is our free choice to accept this gift. The Bible has many examples of people choosing to accept or reject God, and without such freedom of choice, it seems life is a futile game.
I would appreciate your thoughts.
kim
Kim,
Let’s make this its own post for discussion. First, however, you might want to read my Open Letter about the GES Gospel (where I address some of this).
Once you’ve read it, form a tight question or two we can organize our thoughts around.
God bless,
FRL
Here’s the GES Gospel Open Letter:
http://docyouments.googlepages.com/GESGospel.LybrandOpenLetter.04-14-09.pdf
Dr. Lybrand,
I’m scratching my head a little on this one. I was hoping some others would reply so I could get a better grasp of what you’re saying. I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed so please bear with me.
How do you distinguish fact from opinion in theological discussion? I guess we can agree on facts in terms of what the Bible SAYS (except when there are textual variants, in which case we rely on opinions) in any given passage, but to get anywhere we have to determine what it MEANS, and that involves opinion.
Take 1 Cor 15:1 ff. If you were to carry out your suggested exercise with a GES or LS person, it seems to me that you would have the Bible text on one side of the sheet (fact) and proposed meanings on the other (opinion). Where would that get you?
If there is more to it than that, how, in your mind, do you separate fact from opinion? What one person considers a fact is considered an erroneous opinion by someone else.
In your open letter you say that it is “blatantly clear” (fact?) that the GES people shifted their view of 1 Cor 15 to match their gospel. That seems like an opinion to me whether it is correct or not. And can’t LS people say the same thing about most FG folks concerning the words “by which you are also saved if you hold fast the word I preached to you”?
Maybe it would help me if you could give me some examples of how your suggestion could play out over a particular issue.
Also, regarding your words, “If you can prove your opinion, then go do so and make it into a FACT (so everyone will agree)” is that tongue-in-cheek or are you serious?
I don’t mean this to sound critical. I’m just trying to understand what you’re saying. –David Bell
David,
Great Question! I’m pretty sure I can’t be as helpful as I’d like to be, but here goes.
First, I was especially focused on interpersonal communication; though, I do allude to theology toward the end (so your question is good).
So, on an interpersonal level “proving facts” is a powerful way to sort our what we agree / disagree about.
Personally, I don’t believe there are any theories (except Job’s friends, etc.) in the Bible…so it is all facts to begin with.
Our theological wrangling is a largely opinion / theory driven endeavor. For my part, I think we are talking about degrees of certainty in line with our ability to demonstrate our conclusions about any particular point of doctrine / theology.
Did Christ literally and physically die? Yes. A fact we can demonstrate from the evidence.
Was His death substitutionary in its atoning work (or was it just a great moral example? I think we can truly demonstrate from the evidence it was penal substitution. The moral example theory hardly comes from the scripture.
But aren’t there some things we all disagree about with scripture? Yes…and the closer we can sort out what we really agree about (fact…or, at least, shared opinion) we are still in better shape for good communication.
Most of us aren’t willing to admit how flimsy some of our beliefs are…more toward opinion / uncertainty…less near ‘fact’ or provable conclusions.
When I said the GES Gospel folks shifted their view of 1 Cor 15 to match their new view of the gospel, I’m basing it on the FACTS that we can see their earlier view of 1 Cor 15…then their change in the gospel…then their change in their view of 1 Cor 15. I’d be surprised if they can’t admit that. For example, Bob Wilkin (the GES Director) has repented of his view of repentence a number of times. This stuff is factual…or, at least, something we could aim to move from Fred’s opinion to an accepted fact.
I think your point about the LS folks is quite valid—if Free Gracers have changed a ‘generally held view’ about a passage then it is a FACT that they have adjusted their view.
Theology, as you bring to the front, is pretty tricky…but, I’d contend the trick is in the method used and the resources allowed. The Bible only rules out a lot of opinion. A literal hermeneutic helps…as does logic…and lot’s of scriptural support. Building a view on one verse compared to 70 verses can show the nature of certainty toward ‘fact’.
In the Roman Catholic world they venerate Mary…we evangelical types do not; why? Well, we keep the scripture as the priority source of data…not a papal or church declaration. Logic may support some sense that Mary is the Mater Dei, but not in the sense the Roman Catholic Church means. There simply isn’t enough scriptural support to call it any kind of ‘theological’ fact.
In the world of theology it is the gross nature of conjecture and speculation that is so outlandish. My though is that our discussion should still organize around what we can agree on as ‘fact’ (scripturally and theologically) so we can move on to something more in the conversation.
If we can come to agreement about the ‘fact’ as to what the gospel is—how do we move on to the nuances of sanctification?
All of us would do well to hold lightly our speculations, and strongly our convictions BASED ON as much evidence as we can present for any given proposition.
These are my first thoughts…help me out as I ponder some more!
Grace,
FRL
I very much appreciate David’s question…”dumb like a fox,” I say….
I’ve been dialoguing quite a bit with Tim Nichols here on the nature of truth and the need to distinguish between propositional and non-propositional truth. It seems to me that much of the truth of Scripture—while we spend a lot of time reducing it to propositions—can’t really be classified as mere “facts.” I’m starting to see the real value of narrative theology and realizing that it matters far less whether the apostle John got his “facts” right or wrong (e.g., in his account of the timing of the Passover vis-a-vis the Last Supper in the Upper Room—this is currently a topic of heated debate) than whether he painted a truthful picture of Christ’s farewell discourse before the Passion, and what significance it should have for us.
Even more to the point, there are clearly some significant “factual” differences between certain accounts in the Synoptics and John, and even among the Synoptics, for obviously identical events in the life of Christ. Couldn’t these Galilean yahoos get their “facts” straight? Or was the narrative theology being portrayed in their accounts (as truth, of course) more important than the mere “facts”? What if first and second century Jewish and Gentile Christians—for whom oral transmission of the “story” was far more important than it is now, nearly two thousand years later—really had no problem at all with these differences in the narrative accounts, because that’s how “real truth” was orally communicated?
If you’re walking through an art museum looking at paintings, it would be a category mistake to remark to your friend, “Wow, look at all those facts!” or “That portrait is a fact, but the one next to it is only an opinion.” Yet, as is plain to any art critic or even ordinary individual, all art is really only an “opinion” in terms of interpreting truth, and good art can communicate truth very well. Same with literature. So there you have it: Would we agree that the Scriptures communicate truth very well? Why then are there so many different opinions about the “meaning” of those Scriptures?
Maybe we just have some really poor “art critics” out there. Or maybe we need to relearn how to look at it “right.” That’s where I think narrative theology makes it greatest contribution, and perhaps real truth comes through much better from the pictures and stories in Scripture than the print that paints them.
Here is a verse that aims at what I’m saying:
Romans 14:1 (ESV)
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
……
It is the quarreling over ‘doubtful things’ that is at issue in communication. At least in the practical matters of life…seek facts and agreement about them; then opinions (something not yet, or well, supported by evidence) will be seen for what they are or can become (something supported by evidence).
FRL
Thanks to both of you for your responses. I’ll have to chew on them a bit.
As to your comment, Dr. Lybrand, about seeking facts and agreement about them, that’s the beauty of corporate worship. There are many new songs written by LS songwriters that most FG people can sing from their hearts, and many Calvinists can worship singing the hymns of the Wesleys. I’ve leaned heavily on the FG side of issues for a long time and I was worship leader in a LS church for a few years and don’t recall ever having any issues when it came to worship. It often struck me how wonderful it was that we could all unite our hearts in the unity of worship. (Well until, in their growing fundamentalism, the church no longer allowed a FGer to lead worship, which totally boggles my mind.) In my OPINION 🙂 corporate worship is the closest thing on earth to heaven. Someday we will all worship together forever in total harmony.
Until then, I agree that we should focus more on the things about which we agree and then lovingly listen to each other on the issues over which we disagree. –D Bell
David,
Good thoughts! I’ve always thought Eph 5:18ff was a clear corporate reference. There is a true power together as we sing songs/hymns/spirituals to one another. Kind of an instant (for the moment) likemindedness!
Grace,
FRL
I’m meeting with the Board of Elders of my Church to discuss a “hot topic.”
I think the question of “How can we determine if this is true or not?” is going to be the centre piece of my conversation with them.
I’ve felt so poorly equiped to talk on the subject with them, but now I’ve got a safe way to get to what the issue truly is and hopefully avoid the politics. Thankful!!!!
Kev
Good luck (Calvin)!
Let me know how it goes!
FRL
I simply want to say I am just all new to blogging and definitely savored you’re blog. More than likely I’m going to bookmark your website . You surely have outstanding well written articles. Thanks for revealing your blog site.