So, here’s an excerpt I discuss concerning John Piper in Back to Faith.
What do you think?
FRL
Consider the words from a radio broadcast for Desiring God Ministries;
first is a sound bite of John Piper’s message, then an introduction by the
announcer, then finally Piper as he eases into his message,
[Piper] The foundational fact of this argument is
‘People who know Christ, obey Christ.’ There is a
necessary correlation between knowing Christ and
obeying Christ. [Announcer] ‘Can a person be on
the way to heaven and yet live like the devil? John
Piper reveals what God said about that next on
Desiring God radio. If a person goes forward
during a church service and seemingly accepts Jesus
Christ, but his life never changes or if it changes for
a time, but ultimately he goes back to living the
same way he was before he walked the aisle, can we
say that that person was saved? John Piper
examines that question today in part five of his
series taking us through the apostle John’s first
letter. And John, I’ve heard of people who fit that
story and they’re now dead. It’s hard lesson for
some to hear. Is there anyway to soften it?’ [Piper]
Yes, I think it is and whether we should soften it or
not is an open question…
AND
There is no doubt that Jesus saw a measure of real,
lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary
for final salvation.
-Piper, What Jesus Demands from the World, p. 160
Piper is simply an experiemental predestinarian, His Puritanism becomes him.
Bobby,
Fair enough, but that doesn’t make him right. What I’ve tried to argue is that there is an inherent incongruence in the rabid/puritan version of Calvinism.
I think it is a bit Hegelian…Thesis (faith plus works…Roman Catholic)…Antithesis (faith alone, Calvin and Luther, etc., early on)…Synthesis (works are a necessary part of faith…so works MUST show up).
Sounds like politics doesn’t it!
Smiles,
FRL
Piper and some other Calvinists go further than to say works are the inevitable result of faith which alone justifies. As you pointed out in Piper’s quote, he says “final salvation” requires works. But if “final salvation” requires works, that means that “salvation” in the Biblical sense (which connects justification and glorification) requires works. That’s salvation by works.
In reality, Calvinists see both faith and works as requirements of “final salvation”, and these requirements are both inevitable results of “initial salvation” (regeneration), which happens without either faith or works.
Greg,
I think you’ve hit the nail with your head! Exactly, though in some contexts they clearly say it is faith alone apart from works (Piper is fond of saying…apart from Works of the Law…as though that distinction is helpful). While it is certainly ‘biblical’, surely the works of the law are superior than any other works. So, if one isn’t saved by works of the law, how could even more inferior works save?
Of course, some say Christ’s Law is superior…but then it is a problem with God’s Law (OT) vs. God’s Law (NT).
Thanks,
FRL
Fred,
I think maybe you’ve misunderstood me; I detest the theology of John Piper and anything to do with Federal Theology.
It sounds like the practical syllogism and Divine Pactum (pact); and thus it reeks. I’m no fan of Classic/Traditional/Federal/Scholastic/Bezan/Covenant Calvinism; and thus I’m no fan of John Piper.
Hope that helps clarify 😉 .
Bobby
Bobby,
I’m sorry, I totally got where you were coming from…I was just adding for the sake of the other readers!
Your point is well stated.
Thanks,
FRL
P.S. I have an entire chapter critiquing Piper in my recent release at https://www.backtofaith.com. I’ve tried to be fair and gracious, but I am calling on him to change the way he is thinking (or at least, for sure, the way he is communicating!).
He probably won’t like it?
I’ve done similar critiques over the years; maybe you’ll have better luck reaching him than me.
My blog ‘Evangelical Calvinist’, is a general critique on the theology of Piper — but not just Piper.
Okay, I wasn’t sure if you knew where I was coming from with Piper; glad it was clear the first time 🙂 .
I’ll have to read your critique.
Fred,
Why are all your endorsements from DTS guys 😉 ?
The DTS Guys are just the ones I know who are up on the issue…and are friends / co-laborers.
Now that I’m retiring from the pastorate, I’ll get out a little more!
I’m sure I’ll get endorsements from some of my Evangelical Free Church buddies…but I am arguing for a different paradigm!
Thanks,
FRL